|
|
Post by Neil Sutherland on Jun 22, 2007 20:49:01 GMT
This thread is for hunting down that elusive pair, Mr and Mrs C. Mace Esq. Ok, we know that they got married in Berwick Upon Tweed on 26 July 1747. Where did they come from and where did they go?  |
|
neil
Mace Member
Posts: 9 
|
Post by neil on Jun 23, 2007 11:40:06 GMT
We know that Charles was a "gunner", so there is some military connection. It may be a shot - excuse the pun - in the dark but I have kind of worked backwards from Robert Stuart's Fencibles in March 1795. This regiment played a pivotal part in the early uprisings in Ireland, as did his father before him. Looking into this I stumbled upon a joint Irish/French regiment who were also there, obviously to defend the Irish cause against Stuart's Loyalist regt. Irish Brigade was in French and British service [1689-1798]. 1689 Brigade Irlandaise was formed in French Army 5,000 strong in return for French support to James II in struggle against William III, made up of; Mountcashel's Regiment O'Brien's Regiment Dillon's Regiment Butler's Regiment Fielding's Regiment At the same time, the Jacobite Army was formed in Ireland by James II to reclaim the throne from William III. However, in 1698 the Jacobite army was disbanded by Treaty of Ryswick, and the Brigade Irlandaise was reorganised in French Army by amalgamation of the original brigade and remnants of the Jacobite army; Mountcashel's Regiment (later Lee) O'Brien's Regiment (later Clare) Dillon's Regiment Foot Guards In 1701 a further six new regts raised by Chevalier de St. George (James III, the Pretender): Albemarle's Regiment of Horse (later O'Donnell), disbanded 1715 Sheldon's Regiment of Horse Regiment de Galmoy, disbanded 1715 Regiment de Bourke, transferred to Spanish service 1715 Regiment de Berwick Regiment de Dorrington The Regiment de Berwick took on many guises from then on until it was absorbed in 1791 by the 88e Régiment de Ligne. The question is begged ... is there any connection between the two Berwicks, the regiment and town? Have come across a couple of sites, but numpty me can't parlez la Francais. Over to you Jill ... dmr.barbier.free.fr/Berwick.htmpageperso.aol.fr/lycornelia/ |
|
|
|
Post by jill1246 on Jun 23, 2007 15:18:47 GMT
I left my message in mid stream and it must have sunk!!!That'll teach me:-(
So here goes again. Summary of the first site you sent. Why did I let on that I spoke that foreign tongue? I don't remember saying I did, you just assumed that after 37 years I should!!! I can't be the only Mace to speak French, can I? After all I think it is a fair assumption that we were descended from the Fench Hugenots. I even visited the family chateau: la Ferté Macé!!
After James' defeat at the battle of the Boyne, there was no further intervention by the Irsh gentry due to confiscation of their lands and exile abroad. After the Treaty of Limerick 11,000 soldiers lead by Patrick Sarsfield left Cork for France. They assembled in Brest then marched to Normandy where King James organised them into 4 regiments which gained fame under the name on the "Brigade Irlandaise". James FitzJames, Duke of Berwick, illigitimate son of the soverign was named Colonel in Chief on 27/02/1698 and the regiment took his name. It was formed of three companies of the King's army plus what was left of his Dragoons( Athlone Regiment)The Duke of Berwick passed it on to his son the Marquis of Tinmouth!!!! probably Tynemouth I should think unless he were a mere tin soldier!!!in may 1721. It was subsequently passed onto various brothers of the Marquis. In 1791 the "Brigade Irlandaise" was abandonned and the Berwick regiment became the 88th Infantry regiment. In 1792, Louis XVIII ( strange must be Louis XVI) presented farewell colours to the Berwick, Walsh and Dilon regiments bearing the motto" 1692-1791 Semper et ubique fidelis".
There was nothing about it fighting in the UK for the priod that we are interested, but it didn't say it fought in france either and they must have fought somewhere mustn't they?
As for the second site, it only dealt with the French Revolution, so I didn't have to translate, "be thankful for small mercies Jill" I tried to use the smilies dear Neil but didn't manage, shame.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jill Le Bian on Jun 24, 2007 20:53:21 GMT
Probably a stupid idea, but here goes anyway. Bearing in mind the Brigade Irlandaise and the Berwick regiment, maybe Charles the gunner was French. Joined up in France and was sent to the Boarders to fight for the Jacobite cause. Fell madly in love with the wee Scottish lassie, Fortune Crawford, remembered that Auld Alliance and wed her on the spot. The only problem being that if he fought for the Pretender he would have ended up in jail wouldn't he? However, this could explain why the couple's only child was Francis ( François Macé son of Charles François Macé, there are some of these on IGI). Alright it is stretching it a bit:-)
Jill
|
|
|
|
Post by jill le bian on Jun 26, 2007 9:55:23 GMT
First of all I know it's a very long shot so please don't laugh at me for my far fetched suppositions!!
Just came across a Charles Mace, surprise surprise on IGI.
Christened 16/01/1708 St Martin in the Fields, I know that's to early, wait a bit.
Son of Conway Mace and Lucy.
Now here's my reasoning for what it's worth:
Francis, son of Charles and Fortune called his last child Lucy, not a very common name at that time. Her second name being Sandford. What if Sandford were her mother's maiden name as I think and that Francis wanted to give her to have a first name from his side. Lucy could have been chosen because it was his great grandmother's name, or maybe not.
Alright , too far fetched but hey, all you Mace descendants out there, have you got any ideas?
Jill
|
|
|
|
Post by weintcorner on Jun 28, 2007 13:26:12 GMT
I've been looking at various regiments of the '45 Rebellion era and have eliminated loads because they weren't artillery.The Royal Regiment of Artillery were in existence in 1747 at the time of Charles Mace and Fortune Crawford's wedding.They were trained by John Ulrica a Hanoverian. I believe it grew out of a marine regiment.
Culloden...The Duke of Cumberland leading the Hanoverian forces was well supplied by sea via east coast. The battle began with an artillery barrage.
I read somewhere (now can't find the reference) that there were very few gunners in area at start of the rebellion and they used gunners and cannon from ships until new men were trained. Gunners had to be skilled so training was needed.
Could our Charles Mace be one of these trainees? Or did he do the training because he was a Mace and therefore the bees knees!?
As Jill says Charles wouldn't dare show his face in Berwick to get wed if he was a Jacobite. Where did he go after begetting their only child Francis? The War of the Austrian Succession was on.
America and troubles in India.
Bar
|
|
|
|
Post by susankay1 on Oct 11, 2007 10:55:25 GMT
Probably a stupid idea, but here goes anyway. Bearing in mind the Brigade Irlandaise and the Berwick regiment, maybe Charles the gunner was French. Joined up in France and was sent to the Boarders to fight for the Jacobite cause. Fell madly in love with the wee Scottish lassie, Fortune Crawford, remembered that Auld Alliance and wed her on the spot. The only problem being that if he fought for the Pretender he would have ended up in jail wouldn't he? However, this could explain why the couple's only child was Francis ( François Macé son of Charles François Macé, there are some of these on IGI). Alright it is stretching it a bit:-) Jill |
|
|
|
Post by susankay1 on Oct 11, 2007 11:00:02 GMT
Sorry about the confusion logging on.
I'm part of the N.Yorks family and the story we always heard was that Charles Mace was french and came across as part of the pretenders supporters. Not much help I'm sure, I now live in NZ and am researching NZ relatives.
|
|
|
|
Post by jill le bian on Oct 19, 2007 10:45:03 GMT
Hi Susankay
have just read your message concerning Charles Mace. Do you have a place of origin in France or any other info that you could share thus helping me to look into it? Do you know if his occupation was gunner? I must say we haven't had much luck tracing our Charlie Gunner Mace in the UK so who knows?
All the best
Jill Le Bian nee Mace
|
|
|
|
Post by weintcorner on Nov 3, 2007 11:32:43 GMT
Where in N Yorkshire was your family? Could you give me a little background. Bar
|
|
|
|
Post by Jill le Bian 1246 on Nov 5, 2007 11:19:56 GMT
Hi Susankay
Have been doing some research into the Bedale Maces this morning. Are you descended from Edward C. Kay who married a Mace in Bedale in 1927? If so, could you please tell me which Mace female he married as the first name isn't given? I have contacted three people in NZ from your branch to see if they can give me any info on your family hearsay about Charles being from France. Here's my e-mail address in case you want to contact me for more info on the NZ Maces: jill.lebian@free.fr
I would really like to know if you have any idea as to which part of France our ancestor came from. Hope to get a reply from you
Jill
|
|
|
|
Post by MarkaFarnell on Apr 14, 2009 11:05:25 GMT
Charles Mace joined the Royal Regiment of Artillery in October 1743 and was posted to Minorca. W
|
|
|
|
Post by MarkaFarnell on Apr 14, 2009 11:12:47 GMT
when Bonnie Prince Charlie landed in Britain he was recalled to England in October 1745 and posted to Berwick upon Tweed as a gunner (he joined as a mattross). His last record as a matross is in September 1743 when he was paid £3 12s 10d. By then he is married and Francis (my 6 x grandfather) was baptised in February the following year. I have found no buriels for Charles or Fortune in Berwick or Fortunes baptism. I would suggest that they therefore moved on with the army perhaps but Francis spent his life in Berwick so perhaps not......
I would be interested to hear from anyone researching the Fenwick line through daughter Jane Mace to compare notes etc...
|
|
|
|
Post by weintcorner on Apr 19, 2009 11:25:00 GMT
Dear Mark Farnell, I am researching the Fenwick line you mentioned via Jane Mace. please contact me on e mail
batfromel@fsmail.net
My direct line.Bar
|
|
|
|
Post by jill1246 on Apr 19, 2009 12:59:36 GMT
Hello Mark Farnell
Thanks for that info, very interesting. Fortune Mace nee Crawford died 13/04/1783 in Berwick upon Tweed and she was a widow then. I can't find any trace of Charles' burial in thre Uk so maybe he died abroad. Francis also died in Berwickat the ripe old age of 80 years and eleven months on 19/01/1830. He was my four times great grand-father( my maiden name was Mace).Tell me, how did you manage to find all that info on Charles? Did the records you consulted not state his place and date of birth? This would be interesting to try and trace where he originated and thus go a little further back. If you would like to contact me here is my personal e-mail: jill.lebian@free.fr I will willingly share all the info that I have on the Maces.
Hoping to hear from you soon.
regards
Jill
|
|
